Legislature(1995 - 1996)

05/01/1996 08:45 AM House FIN

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
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                     HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                   
                           MAY 1, 1996                                         
                            8:45 A.M.                                          
                                                                               
  TAPE HFC 96 - 152, Side 1, #000 - end.                                       
  TAPE HFC 96 - 152, Side 2, #000 - #171.                                      
                                                                               
  CALL TO ORDER                                                                
                                                                               
  Co-Chair  Mark Hanley  called  the House  Finance  Committee                 
  meeting to order at 8:45 A.M.                                                
                                                                               
  PRESENT                                                                      
                                                                               
  Co-Chair Hanley               Representative Martin                          
  Co-Chair Foster               Representative Mulder                          
  Representative Brown          Representative Navarre                         
  Representative Grussendorf    Representative Parnell                         
  Representative Kelly          Representative Therriault                      
  Representative Kohring                                                       
                                                                               
  ALSO PRESENT                                                                 
                                                                               
  Annette Kreitzer, Staff, Senator Loren Leman; Kenneth  Boyd,                 
  Director, Division  of Oil  and Gas,  Department of  Natural                 
  Resources,  Anchorage;  Patrick  Coughlin, Deputy  Director,                 
  Division of Oil  and Gas,  Department of Natural  Resources,                 
  Anchorage.                                                                   
                                                                               
  SUMMARY                                                                      
                                                                               
  SCR 23    Relating to long range financial planning.                         
                                                                               
            SCR  23  was rescheduled  for  hearing at  a later                 
            date.                                                              
                                                                               
  SB 112    An Act establishing a discovery royalty credit for                 
            the  lessees of  state  land drilling  exploratory                 
            wells and making the first discovery of oil or gas                 
            in commercial quantities.                                          
                                                                               
            HCS CS SB 112 (FIN) was  reported out of Committee                 
            with  a "do pass"  recommendation and  with fiscal                 
            notes by  the Department of Revenue  dated 3/29/96                 
            and  the  Department  of  Natural Resources  dated                 
            3/25/96.                                                           
                                                                               
  SB 98     An  Act  making  changes  related  to the  aid  to                 
            families  with  dependent  children  program,  the                 
            Medicaid  program,  the general  relief assistance                 
            program, and the adult  public assistance program;                 
                                                                               
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            directing  the  Department  of  Health and  Social                 
            Services  to apply to  the federal  government for                 
            waivers to implement  the changes where necessary;                 
            relating   to   eligibility  for   permanent  fund                 
            dividends of certain individuals who receive state                 
            assistance, to notice  requirements applicable  to                 
            the  dividend  program;   and  providing  for   an                 
            effective date.                                                    
                                                                               
            SB 98 was  rescheduled for a  hearing at a  latter                 
            date.                                                              
                                                                               
  SB 89     An Act relating  to the members  of the board  and                 
            staff of the Alaska Permanent Fund Corporation.                    
                                                                               
            SB 89 was  rescheduled for a  hearing at a  latter                 
            date.                                                              
                                                                               
  SB 289    An  Act  relating  to  runaway  minors  and  their                 
            families or legal custodians.                                      
                                                                               
            SB 289  was rescheduled for a hearing  at a latter                 
            date.                                                              
  SENATE BILL 112                                                              
                                                                               
       "An Act establishing a discovery royalty credit for the                 
       lessees of state  land drilling  exploratory wells  and                 
       making the first discovery of  oil or gas in commercial                 
       quantities."                                                            
                                                                               
  ANNETTE KREITZER,  STAFF, SENATOR LOREN  LEMAN, testified in                 
  support  of  SB  112.    She noted  that  SB  112  had  been                 
  introduced  by the  Senate Resources Committee,  which would                 
  return  language  to where  the  law  had been  when  it was                 
  repealed  in  1969;  recognizing  that  terms  such  as  "in                 
  commercial  quantities",  "geologic  structure"  and  "first                 
  discovery" would have to be discussed.                                       
                                                                               
  Ms.  Kreitzer   indicated  that  vague  terms   resulted  in                 
  litigation  over previous  discovery royalty programs.   The                 
  Senate   Resources  Committee   worked   closely  with   the                 
  Department of Natural Resources (DNR)  and industry to write                 
  legislation  which narrows  the  opportunity for  litigation                 
  over  who could be awarded a discovery royalty under current                 
  proposal.                                                                    
                                                                               
  The new program  would reward  the first person  to drill  a                 
  well, resulting in a  new discovery.  That person  must also                 
  complete the well,  resulting in  production.  Ms.  Kreitzer                 
  continued that the discovery royalty provision was available                 
  to all Cook  Inlet Sedimentary  Basin future  leases and  to                 
                                                                               
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  non-producing, non-unitized leases  entered into before  the                 
  effective date of the act.                                                   
                                                                               
  She summarized  that it  is  the sponsor's  intent that  the                 
  legislation encourage new activity in the Cook Inlet region.                 
  Ms. Kreitzer provided  a sectional analysis of  the proposed                 
  legislation.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Representative Martin referenced a letter from Mayor Gilman,                 
  Kenai, regarding the  retroactive section.  [Copy  on file].                 
  Mr. Kreitzer replied  that Page 4,  Lines 17 - 24  addressed                 
  the  retroactive concern.   If a lease  currently exists and                 
  until the  time the  regulations are  promulgated, 180  days                 
  after the effective  date of the act, a  party would then be                 
  eligible to apply for discovery royalty.                                     
                                                                               
  KENNETH BOYD, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF  OIL AND GAS, DEPARTMENT                 
  OF NATURAL RESOURCES  (DNR), added, if  a person had a  pre-                 
  existing  lease  which was  not  working or  producing, they                 
  would retroactively be  permitted to  pick up the  discovery                 
  royalty provision.   The Department  supports a  prospective                 
  discovery lease program.                                                     
                                                                               
  In response  to Representative Martin's query,  Ms. Kreitzer                 
  stated  that  the  terms  "geologic  structure"  or   "first                 
  discovery" do not occur in the  bill.  That language created                 
  litigation concerns in other legislation.                                    
                                                                               
  Mr.  Boyd  continued,  the  Department  has worked  to  more                 
  clearly  define  the  regulations  within  the  legislation.                 
  Discovery  royalty  had been  in  Alaska since  statehood in                 
  1959, and was  then repealed in 1969.  At that time, the big                 
  lease  sale  around  Prudoe  Bay   was  "coming  up".    The                 
  regulations  were  repealed  in  1979.    Regardless,  there                 
  existed a  discovery royalty  in Alaska  for 10  years.   He                 
  questioned  if the State,  after 40 years,  really wanted to                 
  bring back the program.                                                      
                                                                               
  Mr. Boyd commented that very few companies support the bill.                 
  The bill will apply  to existing leases.  He  suggested that                 
  if the  Committee intends to pass the legislation, it should                 
  be made "prospective".  That way  the bill would not capture                 
  any upside potential.                                                        
                                                                               
  Mr. Boyd advised that 180 days  to draft regulations was not                 
  reasonable.   The repealed regulations  could be resurrected                 
  to provide a  basic outline.   The regulations could not  be                 
  drafted in less  than one year.   A law without  regulations                 
  could place litigation concerns before the State.  Mr.  Boyd                 
  concluded, speaking briefly to the timing  of the bill.  The                 
  "ten year clock" should begin as soon as possible to receive                 
  discovery,  although,  the  actual  certification  would  be                 
                                                                               
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  placed later.                                                                
                                                                               
  Representative  Brown agreed  with  Mr. Boyd's  suggestions.                 
  She asked if  a "force majeure"  provision would affect  the                 
  concern.   Mr.  Boyd thought  it would not.   Representative                 
  Brown  understood   that  condition  would   provide  people                 
  incentive to begin production earlier.                                       
                                                                               
  Representative  Brown questioned the  effect of the proposed                 
  incentive versus  other exploration incentive credits.   She                 
  believed that  the benefit would  be delayed.   Ms. Kreitzer                 
  replied  that the  Committee had  considered other  credits,                 
  pointing out that discovery royalty  had been considered two                 
  other times.   In the fall of 1994,  Senator Leman asked big                 
  oil companies  for suggestions  which the Legislature  could                 
  implement  to  address  the  overall  picture.    "Discovery                 
  royalty" was the predominate request.                                        
                                                                               
  Representative Brown  stated that  the proposed  legislation                 
  appeared to be a mandatory retroactive application and would                 
  not  be  a  beneficial  tool to  the  Department  of Natural                 
  Resources.   She continued, a general principle  is that the                 
  Legislature should  not  retroactively  amend  contracts  by                 
  changing material  terms in  the contracts  which were  made                 
  competitively.   The  legislation  would violate  that legal                 
  principle.  Representative Brown asked  if the bills sponsor                 
  was receptive to making the bill prospective.                                
                                                                               
  Ms. Kreitzer responded that  the Senate Resources  Committee                 
  debated that issue, deciding to make it  retroactive to only                 
  those leases that  are not producing.   It was a  deliberate                 
  decision  to include  that  language.   Representative Brown                 
  asked for  a description  of litigation  the State  has been                 
  involved in regarding the proposed issue.                                    
                                                                               
  PATRICK COUGHLIN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, DIVISION  OF OIL AND GAS,                 
  DEPARTMENT  OF NATURAL RESOURCES, spoke  to the cases he was                 
  familiar with.   The first  was a Pan  American case in  the                 
  early  1960's.   The  issue of  concern  with that  case was                 
  determining the meaning of "commercial quantities" which had                 
  been defined by  regulation.   Although, the regulation  was                 
  not  in  effect  at  the  time  of  discovery.    There  was                 
  substantial disagreement between the two companies as to the                 
  meaning.   The director issued  a decision, which  the court                 
  affirmed,  explaining that  the  issue  was a  "competition"                 
  between two companies.                                                       
                                                                               
  The issue was separate  from the concern the State  had with                 
  Conoco.  Here  again, commercial  quantities was the  issue.                 
  That situation resulted because Conoco had been the first to                 
  discover the quantities  referred to as the  Shradder Bluff.                 
  Their claim was  made, even though,  there were 87  previous                 
                                                                               
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  wells which  had penetrated  that formation.   There was  no                 
  risk in the exploratory drilling.  That case was appealed to                 
  the  commissioner,  and was  then  appealed to  the superior                 
  court.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Representative  Brown proposed  a hypothetical  situation of                 
  drilling, which would result in a  pool at another location.                 
  She  asked if that would be  considered a discovery royalty.                 
  Mr.  Boyd  stated  it  probably   would,  depending  on  the                 
  definition of the word "pool".   A pool means something that                 
  is structurally  distinct from  a neighboring  entity.   The                 
  fault would separate  it structurally, making it  a separate                 
  pool.    Ms. Kreitzer  commented  that the  Senate Resources                 
  Committee  had  considered  that  concept   in  their  final                 
  decision.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Representative Brown MOVED to adopt Amendment #1 which would                 
  remove language on Page 5.  [Copy on file].  There  being NO                 
  OBJECTION, it was so ordered.                                                
                                                                               
  Representative Brown MOVED to adopt Amendment #2 which would                 
  remove the retroactive issue.  [Copy on file].  Ms. Kreitzer                 
  noted that the Senate Resource Committee deliberately placed                 
  that language in  the legislation and would  not support the                 
  amendment.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Representative Therriault OBJECTED.                                          
                                                                               
  A roll call was taken on the MOTION.                                         
                                                                               
       IN FAVOR:      Navarre, Brown, Martin.                                  
       OPPOSED:       Parnell,  Therriault,   Kelly,  Kohring,                 
                      Foster.                                                  
                                                                               
  Representatives Grussendorf,  Mulder  and  Hanley  were  not                 
  present for the vote.                                                        
                                                                               
  The MOTION FAILED (3-5).                                                     
                                                                               
  Representative Brown MOVED to adopt Amendment #3.  [Copy  on                 
  file].  The amendment would provide the Department a year to                 
  draft the regulations.  She  pointed out that the Division's                 
  budget was being cut substantially this fiscal year and that                 
  there had been other complex programs linked to  further add                 
  responsibilities to that Division.                                           
                                                                               
  Ms.  Kreitzer replied  that the  Senate Resources  Committee                 
  felt that because regulations had been created  in the past,                 
  the  Department  would   not  be  beginning  from   scratch.                 
  Representative Navarre  countered that  the regulations  had                 
  been repealed in  1979.   He asked if  the Senate  Resources                 
  Committee had gone through the litigation to predetermine if                 
                                                                               
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  the regulations  should be  redrafted.   Ms. Kreitzer  noted                 
  that  the  Department  had  advised  the  Committee  of  the                 
  previous litigation.                                                         
                                                                               
  Mr.  Boyd pointed  out that  the Division's budget  had been                 
  reduced by $50 thousand dollars, which would affect the pre-                 
  sale  position,  those  employees  who  create  regulations.                 
  Representative  Brown added,  there had  been  a substantial                 
  reduction to  the Civil  Division within  the Department  of                 
  Law.  That  Division is responsible for addressing review of                 
  the regulations.                                                             
                                                                               
  Representative Martin believed  that one  year would be  too                 
  much  time.    Representative  Navarre   MOVED  to  adopt  a                 
  "friendly" amendment to  Amendment #3, changing one  year to                 
  270  days,  which   would  be   a  compromise  between   the                 
  legislation and Amendment #3.                                                
                                                                               
  (Tape Change, HFC 96-152, Side 2).                                           
                                                                               
  There being NO  OBJECTION, it  was adopted.   Representative                 
  Parnell OBJECTED to Amendment #3 as amended.                                 
                                                                               
  A roll call was taken on the MOTION.                                         
                                                                               
       IN FAVOR:      Brown, Navarre.                                          
       OPPOSED:       Parnell, Kelly, Kohring, Foster.                         
                                                                               
  Representatives Therriault, Grussendorf,  Mulder and  Hanley                 
  were not present for the vote.                                               
                                                                               
  The MOTION FAILED (2-5).                                                     
                                                                               
  Representative   Brown   questioned   the   effect  if   the                 
  regulations were not in place when the legislation went into                 
  effect.  Mr. Boyd replied that the law would go into  effect                 
  without regulations.                                                         
                                                                               
  Representative Kelly MOVED to report HCS CS SB 112 (FIN) out                 
  of Committee  with individual  recommendations and  with the                 
  accompanying fiscal  notes.   Representative Kohring  voiced                 
  support for the legislation and surprise that the Department                 
  opposed the legislation.   He reiterated  that SB 112 was  a                 
  "good" piece of legislation.                                                 
                                                                               
  Representative Navarre MOVED  an amendment.   Representative                 
  Kelly WITHDREW the MOTION to move the bill from Committee.                   
                                                                               
  Representative Navarre MOVED  a change to  Page 2, Line  11,                 
  deleting "completion of  the" and  "well in", and  inserting                 
  "of".   The same change would occur on  Page 4, Lines 8 & 9.                 
  Mr. Boyd  stated that  it was  a technical  amendment.   Ms.                 
                                                                               
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  Kreitzer agreed with the proposed  amendment, noting that it                 
  had been a change made in  House Resources Committee.  There                 
  being NO OBJECTION, the amendment was adopted.                               
                                                                               
  Representative Brown MOVED a technical  amendment to Page 2,                 
  Lines  8 &  9,  deleting  "as that  term  is  defined in  AS                 
  38.05.180(f)(4)".    Ms. Kreitzer  agreed.   There  being NO                 
  OBJECTION, the change was adopted.                                           
                                                                               
  Representative Kelly MOVED to report HCS CS SB 112 (FIN) out                 
  of  Committee   with  individual  recommendations   and  the                 
  accompanying fiscal notes.  There being NO OBJECTION, it was                 
  so ordered.                                                                  
                                                                               
  HCS CS  SB 1120 (FIN) was  reported out of  Committee with a                 
  "do  pass"  recommendation  and  with  fiscal notes  by  the                 
  Department of Revenue  dated 3/29/96  and the Department  of                 
  Natural Resources dated 3/25/96.                                             
  ADJOURNMENT                                                                  
                                                                               
  The meeting adjourned at 9:30 A.M.                                           
                                                                               
                                                                               
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